Night Owl 6/Night Owl's Shareware - PDSI-006 - Night Owl Corp (1990).iso/020a/dtpinfo1.zip/DTPQST.STR

Text File | 1992-02-04 | 27KB | 627 lines

CompuServe The PR & MKTG Forum

DTP
S 3 / DESKTOP PUBLISHING

Date Range: 14-May-89 to 25-May-89


#41519
Fm: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
To: ALL
Dt: 14-May-89

For those who may be interested, I present this quotation from the lead
editorial statement of issue No. 2 of "Desktop," published by the
International Typeface Corporation:
     "The business person is no longer just an idea maker
     or communicator. Desktop technology demands that we also
     become the designer, the typesetter and even the printer.
     Responsibilities for which we are untrained and unprepared." Raises some
interesting questions, such as why bother when there are so many professionals
to help who ARE trained and prepared? --Dick


#41527 reply to #41519
Fm: Bob Topor 73310,1125
To: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
Dt: 14-May-89

 41519 S3
     "The business person is no longer just an idea maker
     or communicator. Desktop technology demands that we also
     become the designer, the typesetter and even the printer.
     Responsibilities for which we are untrained and unprepared."

Why bother? (That's your question)  Well, for one reason, for the first time
in
the history of printing, a person can, in his/her home do almost all the
things
it has taken tons and thousands of dollars of equipment to do.
    Personally, I manage a professional staff of communicators at Stanford
University.  We can, through desktop publishing, do fast, neat , quality and
inexpensive communications.  We can run jobs through our Linotronic or we can
communicate them around the world.
   The key idea, I believe, is the capture of the original keystroke.  My Dad
was a life long Linotype operator.  Watching that monster smoke belching, hot
lead squirting, noise producing deafening machine work was like seeing Rube
Goldberg in action.  You never saw a machine with so many moving parts!  The
last time my Dad visited me here in California I showed him what I could do at
home with my Mac and PageMaker, Adobe Illustrator, MicroSoft Word, BulkMailer
and communications. (I publish a newsletter called Marketing Higher Education
with readers in the US, Canada, Australia, etc).  He was astonished.
  DTP has allowed the user to do a lot of what previously took many people,
operations, time and money to do.  I will not argue aesthetic comparisons.
However, I can recall my college professor of typography in the 50's complain
that offset would never replace the quality found in letterpress.  I rest my
case!    -Bob Topor, President, Topor & Associates, San Diego & Sunnyvale and
Director of
 University Publication Services.


#41556 reply to #41527
Fm: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
To: Bob Topor 73310,1125
Dt: 15-May-89

Yes, I did. I owned quite a few linotypes over the years. But the operators
were typesetters. They weren't supposed to be writers, designers, editors, and
paste-up artists as well -- any more than musicians are normally expected to
compose, arrange, play and sing and do all exceedingly well (also be their own
recording engineers). `Expecting all these talents in the same person just
because there is a machine that "lets" one do it is why we see so much junk
being printed these days and so much type that looks like a ransom note.
--Dick


#41559 reply to #41556
Fm: John S. Baker 76576,664
To: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
Dt: 15-May-89

<type that looks like a ransom note> ... Very apt expression.  Thanks.  JSb.


#41594 reply to #41556
Fm: Don Picard 71575,1112
To: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
Dt: 17-May-89

I love your musician metaphor for DTP!

In fact I plan to steal it for my next seminar of the subject. I counsel
companies on establishing (or, in some cases NOT establishing) "desktop
publishing systems" and I find much of what you say echoes what I'm telling
them.

The main problem with the Mac and other DTP equipment isn't the equipment, but
the operators. In fact, the Mac can so a pretty good job if the operators know
what they are doing. Note, for example, the fine quality of publications
designed to show off what the Mac can do, such as Adobe's Colophon newsletter.

But beautifully typeset and designed publications like this are the product of
a collaboration between writers, illustrators, designers and Mac-oriented
production artists (latter-day typesetters).  In other words, the same sort of
team that has traditionally produced fine publications, whether the technology
is based on handset type in chases or Scitex design systems.

The Mac has a number of limitations compared to high-end typesetting systems.
But, on a dollar-for-dollar basis, it can produce a lot more "bang for the
buck" in terms of quality.  It's ecause of the "operator inadequacy" we've
mentioned that Mac DTP rarely has the quality it is capable of.

Don (who also has spent the majority of his professional life in a traditional
printing/publishing environment) Picard


#41606 reply to #41594
Fm: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
To: Don Picard 71575,1112
Dt: 17-May-89

Quite right. The Mac is just a tool (and, in many ways an excellent one); but
so is a pencil. If you don't have the talent, the tools don't matter; but in
the right hands, new and better tools do help. The problem is that Apple and
others have spent tens of millions telling everyone that if they just buy the
right computer and software they'll be writing, design, and typesetting pros
overnight. 'Taint so. Many are now beginning to find that out. By the way, how
come Henry Ford and other "geniuses" were celebrated for the division of
labor,
and now we're supposed to do just the opposite? I'm thinking of making MY
fortune by selling scalpels and software so that people can take out their own
appendixes (appendices?) and save lots of time and money compared to waiting
for hospital beds and paying those highwayrobber doctors!! --Dick


#41627 reply to #41594
Fm: Judith Wunderlich 76616,3242
To: Don Picard 71575,1112
Dt: 18-May-89

Don:

Hope you don't mind my jumping in. But you sound like someone who I need
to talk to.
I'm one of those "traditional" typesetters, having worked with dedicated
systems for 12 years, and I now own a type shop with Compugraphic Quadex
equipment. Over the years I've made many contacts in the industry, and
recently 2 companies with in-house typesetting departments have asked me to
recommend (for a fee) whether they should keep their dedicated systems, or
change to DTP and if so, which particular front and back end. It seems they
keep hearing the hype about DTP, and are now "almost" certain that they
should change over. However, I'm not so sure. I've been researching DTP,
both for myself and for others, for the past 6 months. I like what I see,
but I'm not convinced it's time to throw the dedicated typesetting system
away. I'm concerned about typographic controls in particular as compared to
traditional systems. What alarms me is that these 2 in-house companies,
along with a host of my regular customers, don't really care about
maintaining traditional typographic quality standards - they are just
looking at the bottom line, because as we all know, most DTP installations
are much less expensive then typesetting systems.
What do you recommend to the people who ask you the same question? I'm
almost ready to recommend they wait a few years, because I'm sure there
will be a more amicable marriage of traditional typesetting and DTP systems
in the near future, with most prices coming down also.
<<JUDI>>




#41637 reply to #41627
Fm: Bill Weylock, Asst.Sysop 76012,3026
To: Judith Wunderlich 76616,3242
Dt: 19-May-89

Judith -

I agree that it's alarming that the clients do not care about maintaining
typographic quality.

I think they are being very short-sighted.  They and their customers will
possibly not be able to tell a beautifully typeset page from a well-done DTP
page, but the impact of the well-set type will be stronger (all else being
equal) than the impact of the DTP page.  It will communicate quality,
stability, strength, security...  all sorts of things that are important on
the
most crass level in much marketing and sales.  If quality truly doesn't matter
muchm, of course, perhaps they should look at the bottom line.  For companies
trying to communicate with important publics, though, printing still has a
serious edge. IMHO.

The unschooled observer may not know why he or she responds more postively to
the printing, but he/she will.

........Best,

         - Bill W.


#41644 reply to #41627
Fm: Don Picard 71575,1112
To: Judith Wunderlich 76616,3242
Dt: 19-May-89

Judi, to me the question is not whether DTP equipment (whatever that is)
produces as high-quality typesetting as traditional equipment or not.

(If that were the key question, it would have stopped the moves to metal type
from wood, from hand-set to Lino and Ludlow, and from hot to cold type.)

The real questions are: (A) What's the minimum level of typesetting quality
needed for the work, and (B) will current DTP products meet those minimum
levels of quality? If the honest answer is yes, then it's spreadsheet and
accountant time.

If they are producing newsletters, newspaper inserts, tabloid shoppers, etc.
then it doesn't matter whether their type is produced by a device with 1270
dpi, 2540 dpi or 5000 dpi. Precise typographic controls probably mean little
to
publishers of such products. They can't afford the time operator would have to
spend -- with equipment of any quality -- to produce it. So the fact that,
say,
a Pentavision setup offers for controls than a XPress/Lino setup is irrelevant
It's wasted, and such a company would be better off with a good DTP setup. Not
only is it significantly less money, but almost invariably easier to train
people to use.

On the other hand, if the main use of the typesetting operation is to produce
annual reports, 4-color magazine ads, or other such materials, then it may be
best to stick with conventional equipment that offers the needed quality.
Especially if the budget is there, the people are trained and the system
works.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!  But if they are going to be replacing
equipment anyway, then you've got to seriously consider the better DTP gear.

Don't be misled as to its capabilities. In the hands of someone like yourself,
or another capable, experienced typesetter, DTP equipment can produce far, far
better output than what most amateurs do. (Do you know that the state of
Minnesota has "desktop publisher" on the same pay scale as "word processor?"
And they wonder why their publications look lousy.)

In terms of waiting a few years, what you say is true. The longer you wait,
the
[continued in reply]


#41645 reply to #41644
Fm: Don Picard 71575,1112
To: Don Picard 71575,1112
Dt: 19-May-89

[continued]
 better and more cost effective DTP equipment will be. But the same is true of
all technical equipment.  The decision of when to jump into new equipment is
always complex; it's never easy to pick the "perfect" time.  Too early and you
pay a lot of money for equipment that will quickly be obsolete and need
replacing. Too late, and the world has passed you by while you wasted money
making buggy whips.  And it's even harder if you have to replace current
equipment. You'll have to live with your decision for several years because of
the size of the investment.

I'm reminded of a wonderful story told to me by the former head of a major
agency here in town (Minneapolis). He's in his mid-80s now, and one day to
told
me of his teenage years during and just after WWI. As a 15-year old, he was
lusting after the new-fangled tube radios. They has just come out, the
technological successors to crystal radios, but like all new technology, they
were relatively expensive. But he wanted to be the first kid on the block to
have one.

His father wouldn't give him a radio, but told him that if he earned the money
himself carrying papers, he could buy one. Bob lugged papers all summer and
finally amassed the money necessary, and proudly told his father he was going
downtown to buy his radio.

"Well, son," said his father, "that's great, and I'm proud of you. But let me
point out one thing.  That's a lot of money you're spending, which you really
worked hard to earn. And radios, like any new invention, are going to drop in
price next year, as more are produced and they get more efficient at producing
them. So if you can temper your lust for a year, you'll be able to afford a
better radio and still have some money left over."

So Bob took his father's advice and, sure enough, a year later the radio he
wanted WAS cheaper. Not only that, but for only a little more money, there was
another model with better tone, wider range, nicer cabinet, etc.

But as he was about to buy it, dad again pointed out that radio was only at
its
[continued in reply]


#41646 reply to #41645
Fm: Don Picard 71575,1112
To: Don Picard 71575,1112
Dt: 19-May-89

[continued]
 beginning, and he could expect to see even better technology and lower prices
the following year, if he could just be patient.

So Bob waited, and each year the scenario was repeated, and each year his
father
 was right.  And so it went, says my friend Bob, until he turned 22 and had a
full-time job and bought a radio.

"My dad was always right," he says. "The radios did get cheaper and better
each
year.  But, you know, when I think back to those days, all I can remember is
how much I missed not having that radio, not how much money I saved.  I'm not
sure it was a wise decision."

Each do-or-don't DTP decision is an individual one. I just spent hours talking
with a guy who put in $200,000 worth of DTP gear three months ago to replace a
traditional typesetting setup for produce dozens of four-color newspaper
inserts a week. After a few rough weeks, everyone in the shop couldn't imagine
being without the setup.  In a few weeks, I will be analyzing a similar
department in the firm's parent company, which faces the same problem.  I'll
look at it closely, but I doubt that I'll be able to avoid recommending an
XPress/Visionary/Compugraphic 9400 solution. It's just too damned cost
effective, and the readers will never be able to tell the difference, not even
subliminally.

I'm waxing far long, not eloquent, and tying up the Forum space.  If you have
any specific questions about equipment or setups, you probably should EasyPlex
them to me so the sysop doesn't get irritated.

Don




#41658 reply to #41646
Fm: Howard Benner/Asst Sysop 76004,650
To: Don Picard 71575,1112
Dt: 19-May-89

> "...so the sysop doesn't get irritated."

On the contrary, this is an exceptioally interesting thread, and I'd encourage
you to continue it here.


#41690 reply to #41658
Fm: Bill Weylock, Asst.Sysop 76012,3026
To: Howard Benner/Asst Sysop 76004,650
Dt: 19-May-89

Howard -

I left my similar encouragement before reading yours.  great stuff, eh?

........Best,

         - Bill W.


#41689 reply to #41646
Fm: Bill Weylock, Asst.Sysop 76012,3026
To: Don Picard 71575,1112
Dt: 19-May-89

Don -

I disagree with only one hing in your very impressive message...  The notion
that Judi should start using Eplex to spare the forum space.  This is a core
issue in many businesses, and it's a hot marketing topic to boot.

Thank you for taking the time to be so explicit and illustrative.



........Best,

         - Bill W.


#41705 reply to #41646
Fm: Judith Wunderlich 76616,3242
To: Don Picard 71575,1112
Dt: 20-May-89

Don:

>> I was actually sorry when you're message ended. Now I know I've found
the right person to discuss this with. And I'm glad to see from the
response of others that there is much interest in this topic.
>> I concur with you. To shed some more light on this situation let me tell
you about the 2 companies wondering whether to make a change. One is a
small advertising agency currently using a Compugraphic MCS 10 front end
(which has screen previewing capabilities) with an 8000 phototypesetter.
They have 1 full time typesetter, and 3 graphic designers who also do the
paste up. They are leasing their equipment, and the lease expires this
year. They have the option to purchase the equipment at the end of the
lease period for 25% of current retail value, which is around $9,000. Of
course, they have already overpaid for the equipment because of the lease
arrangement. They have budgeted $12,000 (ha ha!) for new equipment, and
apparently think they can get DTP-related equipment for that much. Ideally,
there should be some way for them to keep the 8000 typesetter, get rid of
the MCS front end, and replace it with PC-based text and graphic
composition, with output to their existing typesetter. But since it's not
Postscript, they appear to be stuck. They occasionally get IBM disks from
customers for conversion.
>> The other company is a medium size printer, doing some quality work.
They have a Compugraphic MCS 5 front end (no screen preview) with an 8400
phototypesetter. Without the screen preview, they have to send a file to
their typesetter just to proof it, wasting expensive film. They employ 1
typesetter (who is also the manager) and 1 designer/keyliner. They haven't
specified a budget, but I'm sure they too believe that DTP is cheap. They
are leasing their equipment (have been for 5 years) and their lease also
expires this year. Their system is indeed antiquated and they should not
purchase it at the end of their lease.  They frequently get disks from
customers with IBMs for conversion.
>> Any suggestions or recommendations on specific equipment?
                                 <<JUDI>>



#41736 reply to #41705
Fm: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
To: Judith Wunderlich 76616,3242
Dt: 21-May-89

Pardon me for jumping in. For the client with the 8400, they might investigate
trading up to Compugrraphic's newer line that integrates conventional and
PostScript techniques. Perhaps they can salvage some of what they already have
to work with the new system, and maybe Compu will give them a special deal as
existing customers. A contemplated system should also include the ability to
accept ASCII files from IBM or other sources, either by modem or by null modem
cable from their own PC. --Dick


#41761 reply to #41705
Fm: Don Picard 71575,1112
To: Judith Wunderlich 76616,3242
Dt: 22-May-89

Judi, as I used to tell my friends who asked what kind of computer they should
buy, "My advice is free and worth every nickel you pay for it." But here goes:

Your ad agency, as you've noted, isn't being realistic in its budgeting.  I've
not found a way to utilize any version of Compugraphic earlier than the 9400
for PostScript (though perhaps someone more intimately involved with
Compugraphic equipment will have other ideas).  They would have to upgrade to
a
9400, I believe, and install a couple of Mac IIcx computers or comparable
high-end IBM PS2 machines. The total price would many times what they've
budgeted, of course.

If it were a more "normal" operation than an ad agency (with respect to
deadlines, I mean), they *might* be able to put in 12 grand of DTP equipment
and use a nearby service bureau for their final output.  But I doubt it.  Most
agencies I know work on very tight deadlines, with a lot of last-minute
revisions, and it wouldn't be practical to use a service bureau.  Also, such
limitations as exist in DTP tend to show up most frequently is the rather
exotic layouts ad agency art directors tend to produce.  And even if by using
some combination of, say, LetraStudio and Illustrator 88 (in the Mac world) an
agency artist could produce the end product he wants, the expense of the
learning curve would be prohibitive.

Learning new skills (such as DTP graphics programs) tends to be most efficient
in repetitive situations, such as publishing, when you are doing the same
types
of jobs over and over and can efficiently utilize the investment of time you
spent learning programs.  In the ad world that I've worked with, much of the
design work is commissioned outside, costs are passed back to the customer,
and
a wide variety of art styles are used.  I'm not saying agencies can't use DTP
efficiently -- I know of a couple that have oodles of Macs sitting around --
but I suspect those that do have chosen to do so more because the boss liked
the idea than because of sharp-penciled economic analysis.
[continued in reply]


#41615 reply to #41556
Fm: Bob Topor 73310,1125
To: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
Dt: 18-May-89

Sorry, I seem to have hit a "hot button" with my comments about DTP and the
computer for publishing.  Inevitably issues of quality come up.  Let me have
an
opportunity to state some ideas:
  In no way, shape, or form will the computer substitute for human skills and
abilities especially when it comes to the aesthetic nature of communications.
Reverence for Gutenberg's 42 line Bible, the way a Zapf character kerns
another
character, the "feel" for the bite of a letterpress form on antique paper, the
form of a graphic design when its relationship to subject seems perfectly
orchestrated, will, I agree, never be "created" by a computer.  The skill of
humans requires those things to happen.  And, they often happen as "mistakes"
rather than by formulae.
    Having said that however, one would have to be very narrow minded, in my
humble opinion, to not recognize the power and opportunity inherent in the
computer as a "tool" to achieve a new level or plateau of communications.

(continued on next message)




#41616 reply to #41556
Fm: Bob Topor 73310,1125
To: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
Dt: 18-May-89

         (continued from previous message) I have found it interesting to note
that Hermann Zapf, designer of Melior, Optima and Palatino, one whose design
roots go back to the Trajan column and the finest models of Roman typography,
has been an devote of the computer and its ability to transcend the bounds of
film and metal type.  It is apparent, through his design of typography for the
computer, that he believes that the application of computer generated
characters is a natural evolution.  (I recall him speaking to that issue at
Goudy lectures at the Rochester Institute of Technology in the 60's and 70's).
  I have the greatest respect for human skills and abilities required to
design
(having been a trained painter, designer, art director and illustrator) and
for
the terrible responsibilities one accepts to write well (having published
books
and articles about communications and marketing).  I also respect the
wonderful
opportunities the computer puts into one's hands when I can do the things I do
with it (write, communicate, and publish) as well as encourage my colleagues
and staff at Stanford in the work they do with computers.
  In sum, I feel (strongly) that the computer has put into our hands the
ability to produce things that have not been done before.  However, as has
been
true throughout history, the machine is ONLY the tool.  We are limited by our
own skills and abilities to make the tools do the job we can imagine, define
and accomplish.  The burden is on us, not on the equipment.
  The computer, DTP, and electronic communciations have revolutionized what I
am able to do.  Hasn't it done the same for you?
  Robert S. Topor, Sunnyvale


#41626 reply to #41616
Fm: Bill Weylock, Asst.Sysop 76012,3026
To: Bob Topor 73310,1125
Dt: 18-May-89

Bob -

Very eloquently and (for my money) aptly stated.  I even agree with you.

I'm a big fan of Zapf typefaces as well, though I'm far from a student f
typography.  I noticed a particularly clean typeface on a novel I bought; and
(since it was a Knopf book) I was able to find out that it was called Aldus -
also by Zapf.

........Best,

         - Bill W.


#41628 reply to #41616
Fm: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
To: Bob Topor 73310,1125
Dt: 18-May-89

Hermann (and his wife, Gudrun) are good personal friends, and they would agree
,
I'm sure, that as a tool the computer is wonderful; but also, that under the
guise of "DTP" as commonly practiced, it is far too often mis-used, with
resulting horrible graphics. -Dick


#41636 reply to #41628
Fm: Bill Weylock, Asst.Sysop 76012,3026
To: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
Dt: 19-May-89

Dick -

A case illustrating your point is the recent overhaul of the MacWorld trade
magazine.  They have gone entirely to a DTP layout system except for some
illustrations and advertising.  It looks it.  The pages are no longer so clean
and crisp, and you can see the standard DTP typefaces used over and over.

I'm not enough of a pro to know how to describe the evidence, but I know there
is a DTP "look" that I find very impressive in business reports, but somewhat
tacky in magazines.

........Best,

         - Bill W.


#41709
Fm: Bill Weylock, Asst.Sysop 76012,3026
To: Judith Wunderlich 76616,3242
Dt: 20-May-89

Judi -

I understand everything you say, and I hope the thead continues.  I'd post
more
of a reply, but Don Picard's earlier message, which you will have read by this
time, is so eloquent and comprehensive I really don't have much to add.

The point you make here that Don (as I recall from a few days ago) didn't seem
to emphasize greatly is the high ticket price of the initial buy-in.  Then I
suppose you have an uphill battle trying to convince people that they need to
spend money to buy high-end equipment when they have been reading about the
wonders they can work on a PC with a LaserJet.

Don picks it up from there.

........Best,

         - Bill W.


#41735 reply to #41709
Fm: Richard Weltz 76046,2123
To: Bill Weylock, Asst.Sysop 76012,3026
Dt: 21-May-89

One of the other problems, Bill, that nobody ever talks about is that when --
and if -- the in-house corporate DTP people get operators trained well enough
to understand and produce excellent type and graphics, they leave for
higher-paying jobs at type shops. That's also true of in-house photocomp. Just
check the help wanteds in any Sunday NY Times, and read the desperation
between
the lines, especially in the ads placed by the large corporations with in
-house
type. --Dick